Curse

Kaleban · May 06, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Okay, I want to start off by saying I did Search and found short threads from last year. Wanted a fresh topic, no necromancy!

There's three skills I'm looking at for the Assassin. [skill]Beguiling Haze[/skill][skill]Temple Strike[/skill][skill]Golden Skull Strike[/skill]

Discuss!

j/k

My favorite is Beguiling Haze, a Shadow Step and Daze is ftw. However, I like Temple Strike for the interrupt, damage and Blind to cover. Which I choose depends on whether I want to gank casters or am more melee oriented.

What I can't figure out is Golden Skull Strike. Its 5 less energy sure, but that doesn't mean much with high Critical Strikes and a Sin's natural predilection for high energy (35+ for me). Its 5 seconds less recharge than the other two, but does that mean much when the idea is to kill the dazed target in one quick attempt?

The only disadvantage to BH is its in Deadly Arts, which needs an 8 or 9 investment for optimum timing, which of course takes away from Dagger Mastery and Critical Strikes.

So the question for me is, why Golden Skull Strike? Its an off-hand, same as Temple Strike, only marginally less costly and less recharge than either of the other two skills, is vastly inferior to Temple Strike in terms of effect, and is also conditional on being enchanted, which with stripping so prevalent isn't always a sure bet!

Now, if GSS added damage like most of the other "Golden" skills, or was changed to be an unblockable (if enchanted) lead attack, then I could see using it. But as it is now, its a shallow copy of Temple Strike and has nothing that would incentivize me to take it over the other two.

Dr Strangelove · May 06, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

None of them are particularly threatening. Since BH is in deadly arts, people don't invest heavily in it, leading to a 5 second or so daze. With daze reduction equipment, it's gone before you even notice it.

With temple and golden skull, you're forced into L-O-D, energy problems prohibit you from using a more powerful combo, and you can't use your elite on something more painful.

For a sin, a couple knockdowns will go much further than daze.

snaek · May 06, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

for [golden skull strike]
with silencing daggers, u can upkeep dazed on a target 13s out of ever 15s

i spose wit the low energy cost too, u can worry less bout e-management

btw i prefer [beguiling haze] out of the 3...
cuz i prefer +dmg out of my attack skills

shorter duration isnt too much of a prob...
cuz higher dmg attack skills = they die faster

snaek · May 06, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

None of them are particularly threatening. Since BH is in deadly arts, people don't invest heavily in it, leading to a 5 second or so daze. With daze reduction equipment, it's gone before you even notice it.

its actually shadow arts...
and this allows the sin to have their self-heal be more effective

besides, deadly arts is actually pretty common
not so much anymore since the numerous constant nerfs to da key skills...but its still common

(its generally used in ra/ab where u need to be self-reliant anyways)

Turbobusa · May 06, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Baguiling haze for the shadow step!
I like to follow up with iron palm, even if those have 20 secs recharge, it's good for the lulz

JASON626 · May 06, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

IF your going to daze someone you generally need a criple/snare to prevent kiting. Alot of times a single person on a dazed monk won't kill becuase 1/4 cast skills can get cast, i.e. reversal, patient spirit.

Knockdowns are pretty good. They interupt skills and while on the ground for a minimum of 2 seconds per knockdown they can't cast or move.

just my ideas.

MasterSasori · May 06, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I'd go with Haze. It has proved to be pretty potent at times when it hits an unsuspecting monk/caster.

Tyla · May 06, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Temple Strike.

Haze requires you to chip into Shadow Arts, and Shadow Arts is quite bad skill-wise. You can get good part of it's good skills with little investment anyway.

Golden Skull has a lengthy recharge.

For PvE, I would rather slap BHA on my 'Sins bar if I want a reliable Daze.

But as the good old Dr. said, none of them are really very threatening. If you use it on a Monk (Providing s/he has a decent skillbar and GW:EN), Patient Spirit / RoF would still be hard to hit unless you're Monkstomping, and that's only against mobs in AB, and in 8 man arenas, your second Monk most probably has condi removal too.

I admit though, Shadowstepping is quite cool.

BlackSephir · May 06, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Beguiling Haze-> Leaping Mantis = yay!

Bobby2 · May 06, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Beguiling Haze-Iron Palm for me

I run 7 Shadow (threshold 6 sec Daze) + Silencing Daggers (+33%) for an 8 sec Daze that would otherwise be at 12 Shadow (ugh). I run no other Shadow skills so didn't wanna invest more.

What hinders me about Temple and Golden Skull is the complete and utter lack of bonus damage.

@Tyla: Golden Skull has recharge 15, Temple 20. What's your point?

A Leprechaun · May 06, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Why are people running Beguiling -> Iron palm? Surely with the KD from Iron palm you aren't using the daze to its full potential, you may as well just KD -> damage chain.
Meh, I don't sin much.

~A Leprechaun~

Tyla · May 06, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

@Tyla: Golden Skull has recharge 15, Temple 20. What's your point?

Nice catch, but I just don't like the requirement on Golden Skill, because if something relies on enchantment, I believe it is autobad.
Unlike Temple Strike, which can make wammos cry with Blind and Daze at the same time!!!

Kaleban · May 06, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

My bad on Beguiling being Shadow Arts, was in a rush lol.

I guess my main question is why ever use GSS? At 12 Dagger Mastery, GSS lasts 9 seconds, TS 8. I forget if GW rounds up with Silencing mods, but either way the difference won't be more than 1 second. And since I usually run a 15 or 16 in DM as standard on my sin, my TS duration is the same as GSS or better (10 or 11 compared to just 10 for GSS).

I mean, is it really worth 5 energy and 5 recharge for a skill that does less than half of another and is STILL elite? Not only does GSS require enchantment (which is difficult to maintain with all the anti-enchant nowadays) it doesn't interrupt or blind.

Take a look at these for comparison:

[skill]Bestial Mauling[/skill]
[skill]Awe[/skill]
[skill]Spear Swipe[/skill]

All three non-elite, the first two dependent on knockdown (easy for a sin to cause) and the third dependent on a condition, also easy for a sin to cause. All three of the sin's daze skills are elite. Spear Swipe is funny, its a paragon melee attack, with paragons having naturally higher armor, adds bonus damage and is a regular skill, and doesn't require a lead attack lol.

Bestial is Beast Mastery obviously, so one could use that as a secondary with a pet (I prefer the Black Moa lol), but the two paragon ones are Leadership based. I just think as is, GSS is a wasted skill, a lesser duplicate of Temple Strike, and scarcely deserving of elite status, especially when compared to other professions' non-elite daze causing skills.

As I said before, I think GSS should be changed in one of two ways:

Simply make it a non-elite and leave the rest OR

Keep as an elite, but make the following changes:

Make it a lead attack

Add bonus damage say in the 5...10...25 range OR inflict a second condition different from Blind (to keep skills distinct), appropriate ones would be Bleeding or Crippled I think.

Change the enchantment requirement to "this attack misses if not under an enchantment" similar to [skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill]

Switch places with Locust's Fury

The last makes sense to me, to have a double strike increasing elite in the attribute responsible for double striking, much like Critical Eye is in Critical Strikes. It also seems to fit there along with Flashing Blades. Putting [skill]Golden Skull Strike[/skill] in Critical Strikes would also keep a potent elite as described above out of the hands of secondary sins.

Perhaps I'm just being nitpicky, but I don't think the changes described above are overpowered, and I'd like to make use of GSS at some point. However as it is now, it will NEVER make it onto my skillbar, considering the far superior Temple Strike or the awesome utility of Beguiling Haze.

RavagerOfDreams · May 06, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

i prefer temple strike over golden tbh
makes a nice spike combined with [skill]Signet of Deadly Corruption[/skill] or [skill]Signet of Shadows[/skill]

mostly because of the the cover condition + the fact that its not totally useless against melee's.

However i agree that BH is sexy as it is a shadow step and its fun to go like this [skill]Beguiling Haze[/skill]-> [skill]Iron Palm[/skill]-> [skill]Falling Lotus Strike[/skill] -> [skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill] -> [skill]Signet of Deadly Corruption[/skill]

BH's effectiveness at low Shadow Arts (5ish) also helps

Bobby2 · May 06, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I mean, is it really worth 5 energy and 5 recharge for a skill that does less than half of another and is STILL elite? Not only does GSS require enchantment (which is difficult to maintain with all the anti-enchant nowadays) it doesn't interrupt or blind.

From GuildWiki:
Dazed will interrupt a spell being cast when it is applied, even without any damage being caused or any attack being made. The interrupt occurs even if the target was already dazed and the condition is re-applied.

Temple Strike's 'interrupt' clause is... useless. You don't know how many times I've interrupted [skill]guardian[/skill] by [skill]beguiling haze[/skill]ing right in the Monk's face.

Daze is an offensive condition in the sense that it tends shortens the lifespan of your target considerably by rendering almost all (self-)heals useless. Blind is very much a defensive condition, it's not going to help take the target down any faster.

RavagerOfDreams · May 06, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

From GuildWiki:
Dazed will interrupt a spell being cast when it is applied, even without any damage being caused or any attack being made. The interrupt occurs even if the target was already dazed and the condition is re-applied.

Temple Strike's 'interrupt' clause is... useless. You don't know how many times I've interrupted [skill]guardian[/skill] by [skill]beguiling haze[/skill]ing right in the Monk's face.

Daze is an offensive condition in the sense that it tends shortens the lifespan of your target considerably by rendering almost all (self-)heals useless. Blind is very much a defensive condition, it's not going to make the target down any faster.

not only that but monks rarely carry [skill]Mending Touch[/skill] + [skill]Draw Conditions[/skill] over [skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill] so you have a much better chance of keeping the daze on the monk as his condition removals only take away one condition. With that said imo temple is a safer way to go the GSS but BH is better then both temple and GSS

ShadowsRequiem · May 07, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

I love temple strike, though I run insanely high crit strikes with no heals cause I normally just run it in ab.

Beguiling is okay but you really have to get a cover condition up right away. And in any pvp decent monks have return and can kite.

itsvictor · May 07, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

Why are people running Beguiling -> Iron palm? Surely with the KD from Iron palm you aren't using the daze to its full potential, you may as well just KD -> damage chain.
Meh, I don't sin much.

~A Leprechaun~

You need to snare the target, KD clause of iron palm is easily filled w/ the daze from BH. I don't use my sin much anymore but I still prefer sin-shoving. Unless you have cripple coming in or a second KD(outside sources besides the sin), not hard to outkite the daze or put up shield bash/etc and remove it.

Turbobusa · May 07, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

I saw some HL guild (forgot the name) running [skill]Beguiling Haze[/skill]-> [skill]Iron Palm[/skill]-> [skill]Falling spider[/skill] -> [skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill] -> [skill]Signet of Deadly Corruption[/skill] -> [Signet of toxic shock]
with [resurrection signet](or[tiger stance], can't remember if both sins had a signet) [shadow of haste]
Needs +5e daggers, maybe one +energy rune.

RavagerOfDreams · May 07, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

hmmm shadow of haste is back in gvg....i might be able to get a job again <3